Episode: 030

Kathleen Shannon

Braid Creative

Phase 3
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Kathleen Shannon

Kathleen Shannon: Braid Creative

This episode of On Branding is brought to you by Circles Conference, a creative conference for the creative community. Learn from world-changing thinkers and innovators, to inspire, create, and repeat. Attend this September 18th and 19th in Grapevine, Texas, to mingle with speakers like Jessica Hische, Kathleen Shannon, The Heads of State, and more. To grab your tickets before they’re gone, visit circlesconference.com.

Kathleen Shannon is known for being kind of a powerhouse. A designer, creative director, and strategist wrapped up into one moving, shaking, phenom among the design community, Kathleen brings a sense of pizzaz and energy to every single brand project she touches. Spiritual. Whimsical. Buzzing with life. She is the co-founder of Braid Creative, working alongside her sister Tara Street – the two are a yin-and-yang between complimentary right-brain, left-brain skill sets. Offering creative visions and, yes, a shoulder to lean on during what can often be an intense branding process, Kathleen helps solo-prenuers, bloggers, photographers, designers, artists and other ‘makers’ refine and embolden their message so that they can make money with focus – and purpose.

Besides taking on clients, Kathleen has also become highly popular in the online design community for the Braid E-Courses she develops with her sister, where they share bits and pieces of the Braid Method – a tuned in approach that helps anyone (clients and non-clients alike) give thoughtful meditation for why their brand exists…and for who.

And, if she weren’t busy enough, Kathleen is the proud new mother of baby Fox, born this spring.

We caught up with Kathleen this week to discuss how new motherhood enhances the intensity of the creative process, authenticity that magnetizes new – and shifting – audiences, and making time to connect with her legions of creative, ambitious fans all over the world.


Episode Transcript

Amanda: Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of On Branding by Phase 3. I’m your host Amanda Serfozo.

Amanda: Kathleen Shannon is know for being kind of a powerhouse. A designer, creative director, and strategist wrapped up into one moving, shaking phenom among the design community, Kathleen brings a sense of pizzaz and energy into every single brand project she touches. She is the co-founder of Braid Creative, working alongside her sister Tara Street offering creative visions and, yes, a shoulder to lean on during what can often be an intense branding process. Kathleen helps solopreneurs, bloggers, photographers, designers, artists, and other makers refine and embolden their message so that they can make money with focus and purpose. Besides taking on clients, Kathleen has also become highly popular in the online design community for the Braid ECourses she develops with her sister where they share bits and pieces of the Braid Method, a tuned in approach that helps anyone, clients and non-clients alike, give thoughtful meditation for why their brand exists. And if she weren’t busy enough, Kathleen is the proud new mother of baby Fox, born this spring. We caught up with Kathleen this week to discuss how new motherhood enhances the intensity of the creative process, authenticity that magnetizes new and shifting audiences, and making time to connect with her legions of creative, ambitious fans all over the world.

Amanda: This episode of On Branding is brought to you by Circles Conference, a creative conference for the creative community. Learn from world-changing thinkers and innovators to inspire, create, and repeat. Attend this September 18th and 19th in Grapevine, Texas, to mingle with speakers like Jessica Hische, Kathleen Shannon, The Heads of State, and more. To grab your tickets before they’re gone, visit circlesconference.com.

Amanda: Hello?

Kathleen: Amanda hello!

Amanda: Hi Kathleen, how are you?

Kathleen: I’m good. I’m a little sleepy, not gonna lie.

Amanda: Same, same, even though it’s 10:45 I still haven’t had breakfast, haven’t done the coffee thing. We’re getting there.

Kathleen: Oh my gosh. Well half my day is over, I’ve been awake since like 5:45.

Amanda: Oh my goodness. How’s Mr. Fox doing today?

Kathleen: He’s good. No matter how little sleep he gets he’s still so happy. So lessons to be learned there.

Amanda: Exactly. He is so sweet. Good job on making him!

Kathleen: Aw thank you!

Amanda: So let’s start with question number one. This is something I’ve been thinking about for a while, and I’ve seen so many moms do the mom and business thing at the same time. One of the most beautiful and powerful things that I’ve seen happen to women after they give birth is that they become more confident. Not only confident in their own lives like, “Hey I can do this, I can have a baby and I’m awesome at it!” But they’re also confident in business. It transcends from being a mom to running a business. How has confidence in motherhood turned up the volume on the confidence you had in business?

Kathleen: Well it’s funny because whenever I was pregnant – I always imagined before I had kids that somehow kids would make me slow down or it would be taking away from certain aspects of my life – but as I was pregnant I found that as I was growing this little human in my body, everything around me was growing too and especially my business. So I think it was just this overall manifestation of growth. And that has translated since having the baby and I think there is something about pushing that baby out. I had a home birth, unmedicated, and it was this scary – I shouldn’t say scary, I need more words – but there’s not enough words in my vocabulary to describe the feelings that you go through whenever you’re giving birth and laboring through that. And so it’s kind of like one of those personal Mount Everests where you’re like, “If I can do that, I can do anything.” I will say I struggle a little bit. Now more than ever I sometimes actually question myself. Am I making the right choices? Am I doing the right things for my business? For my baby? And it’s a lot more to balance. So I actually hired a – I call her my Momma Coach. Her name is Rebecca Egbert and she used to be a midwife and now she’s this amazing postpartum coach who coaches really strong women through what it is to deal with all the postpartum things that no one really talks about, from like peeing yourself doing jumping jacks to marriage stuff to, “How do I continue to work and grow my business while also trying to raise a little kick-ass baby?” I just want to be a warrior mom and so she really helps hold me accountable to being the kind of person, the kind of business woman, and the kind of mom that I want to be.

Amanda: That is awesome and I love that you have someone there to help you because it is such a transformative time. You’re going through so many changes physically, mentally, emotionally that having a guide with you to help you through it is an awesome idea. I love it.

Kathleen: Yeah I think that not enough women ask for help and it’s so important from hiring someone to come clean your house every week, to putting your baby in day care if that’s what works best for you, to asking your partner to get up in the middle of the night with you and maybe just pat you on the back while you’re feeding a baby. And so for me a big part of asking for help was going to Rebecca and saying, “Hey help me through this.” It’s been tremendous. So ladies out there, if you’re listening to this, don’t try to do it all. Get some help, there’s no shame in it.

Amanda: Welcoming her new little man into the world, Kathleen beams. You can hear it in her voice. You can tell by her inflection and the way she thinks that she cares deeply about what authenticity means to new mothers.

Amanda: Brands are trying so hard to cater to new moms. They’re everywhere. They’re in Target, they’re trying to get you on your email, they’re trying to advertise in your face. It’s coming from all over the place. It’s interesting how they – not prey on you – but they’ll come at you hot and heavy to get your business. What catches your eye when you’re shopping at Target, for instance, when your walking through the aisle package-wise, design-wise, messaging-wise, positioning-wise. What is it that speaks to you and gets your attention and cuts through the noise?

Kathleen: You know honestly since having the baby I’ve just become a lot more conscious and aware of shopping local. I’m not going to say that I don’t go to Target, because I do, I love it just as much as anyone else and I can never get out of Target without spending at least $100 every time.

Amanda: It’s a trap.

Kathleen: It is a trap! But I’ve really tried to make an effort to support my local friends who are also moms and dads. So this is what I’ve noticed is that a lot of my local entrepreneur friends are parents. And so I think is it about this culture of trying to make something bigger than yourself. And so if anything I’ve become anti-brand since having a baby because I think that, especially the way that you described, that they prey on us as new moms, or whatever the new milestone in life is. I think it’s so clear what they’re trying to do, and I don’t know if it’s because I’m in this industry that it just seems a little too obvious to me, but I guess there are some bigger brands that I do gravitate towards like Honest Company. Before I had a baby I was like, “Oh whatever Jessica Alba.” But now that I have a baby and I do the cloth diapering thing, I’m kind of crunchy granola when it comes to how I’m raising my baby. But on vacations or in the middle of the night sometimes it’s easier to throw in a disposable, so I want that disposable to not have harsh chemicals in it. So yeah, I’m going towards the Honest Company diapers because they’re cute and eco-friendly, allegedly. So stuff like that. More than anything I’m just trying to support my local mom and pop stores.

Amanda: So let’s transition into talking about your very first projects you did with Braid Creative. I think anyone that branches out on their own and does their own independent work, or claims themselves to be a creative, looks back on their early work and kind of cringes in a way. And it’s kind of inevitable. Ira Glass has a great quote about there’s a gap between…

Kathleen: Yes the gap!

Amanda: The gap, you’ve heard it!

Kathleen: I love that quote!

Amanda: And so do you ever look back on your early work and go, “Oh gosh that was terrible!” Or do you embrace it and say, “You know what, I needed to do that to get to where I am today, to have the eye for design and branding and messaging that I have right now.” What is it for you?

Kathleen: I’ve been in the industry now for, I don’t know, 10 years? So definitely as a designer I can look back on my early work and, “Oh my gosh, what was I thinking?” And especially whenever I see stuff that’s super trendy that I’ve done, like whenever everyone was doing the banner thing, or the bird thing – like Put A Bird On It – you know there are those things that are super trendy and so that’s the work that I look back on and maybe cringe a little bit. But again, at the same time, it’s like fashion or anything else, it’s part of the process and part of just being a part of your community and of your time. So I try not to be hard on myself. But since starting Braid Creative I don’t really cringe on any of my early Braid work because I think that I was established enough in what I was doing. And also teaming up with my sister was huge. She’s been in the industry for 15 years, so for a while. The biggest thing that we did whenever we were starting our business was really working to define and develop the Braid Method, which is our process of discovery and really finding the information that we need to best help creative entrepreneurs build that brand platform and that business vision for themselves. So more than anything it was just getting through those early case studies and charging half as much as we do now just to get those under our belts. Whenever I look back and think about that first year – it’s probably a lot like raising a baby, right?

Amanda: It’s all a metaphor, see?

Kathleen: It just feels like really hard work that I would probably not ever want to do again. I never want to start a business ever again. It’s hard work. But now I’m starting to see a lot of the benefits from that. And I feel so solid about our method. We’re able to help so many more of our dream clients now than ever before.

Amanda: Kathleen is forthright about the clients she takes on. Highly creative, driven, at once completely un-corporate and highly niched to specific audiences. Instead of knocking down doors to prove herself to specific brand names, she lets the process happen naturally.

Amanda: Let’s talk a little bit about CMOs today. I feel like they need to go do an Ogilvy or like a brand name agency. So I was just wondering your thoughts on how you disarm people from thinking that they need to go to a larger agency, and why maybe a smaller agency is a better fit – a two or three person operation who are really hands on. What in your mind is the difference in the quality of work there?

Kathleen: This is an interesting question. It’s like so Mad Men, old school mentality right? And it’s just funny because I watch Mad Men and I feel like the advertising world as we know it is just completely being disrupted it seems. And if someone, if a CMO feels like they need to go to an Ogilvy or a brand name and spend twice as much money, go for it. I’m not going to try and disarm you. Bless you, go, do what you need to do to feel most confident about the work that’s going to be produced. Obviously these big agencies, they lend a lot of credibility and talent, and they are a good fit for a lot of big brands. Earlier you where talking about how they’re partnering with smaller local folks to sell their goods. I think that those are the brands that get it, those are the brands that would probably go with a smaller agency, maybe even just for a promotional campaign, to help them execute on a project. And I think that that’s just the way the world is going. I don’t know if you follow Freelancers Union?

Amanda: Yeah I love them.

Kathleen: But I feel like they put out a quote – and maybe I’m wrong here, I don’t know if this statistic is at all accurate or not – but I read something that by 2015 half the workforce in the states will be freelance. So that’s huge, and I think that the more and more that that happens, the more that these big agencies like Ogilvy, and then the brands that support them, are going to start readjusting their own business models and their expectations of the kinds of creatives that they work with on their branding. Does that make sense?

Amanda: Absolutely.

Kathleen: So I would say for now I’m not gonna try and win you over by any means to work with smaller people. For my own company, for Braid Creative, we can’t handle big brands. We like working with the solopreneur. The biggest brand that we’ve worked with is Brené Brown, who is still an individual person.

Amanda: It’s like, “We wouldn’t want to work with you anyway.”

Kathleen: Exactly! And not like in one of those defensive, “I don’t want your business anyway!” But I literally couldn’t handle it. And these big agencies offer a lot more than just creative and just branding, they offer media buys, they offer really deep strategy, and they have the capacity to handle a multi-million dollar campaign.

Amanda: Letters for Creatives is a heart to heart exercise where a brand builder can talk to other brand builders about the process of – you guessed it – branding. Fearlessness. Confidence. Taking on new work. Juggling it all. She approaches each topic with thoughtfulness and tact, and encourages her community to talk to her about what’s on their minds so she can learn and help them.

Amanda: Let’s dig into the real meat of our conversation. So something I love that you put out – it reminds me of Seth Godin thought nuggets – Letters for Creatives. They’re gut checks to get people thinking, always re-evaluating their processes, which is awesome, we always need to do that. The posts and letters that you write come from your own experience running Braid. Who do you envision when you are writing those? Who are you talking to? Who’s soul are you trying to reach?

Kathleen: Right. So I started the Letters for Creatives as an email to your inbox, “Let’s get real. Let’s have a conversation. You can hit reply and talk to me.” Because I feel like my blog posts over at Braid were getting very – I mean they’re good, they’re meaty – but they were losing some of the personality that I love sharing, for example in my own personal blog posts over at andkathleen.com. So I wanted to start Letters for Creatives as a way to share the behind the scenes of my own journey and building this business that is Braid Creative, but still offering lots of tips and advice because I always want to be helpful. I never want to be entirely self-indulgent, which I usually don’t think about but it’s something that my sister is far more concerned about. And my sister is my business partner, if I haven’t said that already. So we write these letters and they definitely come from our own experience of running Braid. I envision speaking to a young creative who’s starting their business, or an established creative who’s still at a day job maybe and thinking about quitting their job. I always imagine someone reading my letter on their lunch break at their job and being like, “I want to do this thing!”

Amanda: Yes! That’s been my whole year.

Kathleen: So I was speaking to you!

Amanda: Yes, you were! You were, thats why I love you so much!

Kathleen: I love it when people reply and say, “Oh my god, you are in my head. How did you know exactly what I was thinking? This landed in my inbox just at the right time.” I love that kind of synchronicity. But I’d say more than anything I write – I mean this is going to sound a little selfish – but I write for myself. I love writing and I love expressing myself in that way. And I love being invited into someone’s inbox. I feel like email inboxes are a sacred space. So I never want my newsletter to be so huge that I’m flooding peoples’ inboxes with unnecessary content. Does that make sense?

Amanda: Yes absolutely. Yeah I love what you said about sacred space. When something gets in your email that you didn’t sign up for it’s like you’re defensive, you’re like, “How did you even get here?” And you kick them out. So welcoming someone into your inbox like that, it is a relationship and it takes time to really think about, “What’s on someone else’s mind that’s not in mine?” But it’s interesting that you say that as you’re learning and as you’re going through the process, you’re writing for yourself too and I think a lot of people are in a similar place in their lives and their business. And I think that’s why it resonates so clearly because it’s like you’re speaking on behalf of them and they get it. That’s great content when people are like, “Mmhmm, yup I hear ya!”

Kathleen: You know it’s funny because as a kid I always thought that grown-ups had it all figured out. And now I’m a grown-up and I realize that we’re all just big kids. And we’re all still figuring it out, so let’s just be honest about that. Share what we can, share what we’ve learned along the way. I use this analogy that you’re always a forth grader to someone else’s third grader or second grader. We always all have something to learn from each other. So I might be a fourth grader, there might be some third graders out there reading my letters, gaining stuff from it. There might be some high schoolers reading my letters and they’re replying and telling me, “Hey you should check out this blogger.” Or offering other resources that I didn’t know about so then I can learn from them as well.

Amanda: And I’m curious, how much time does it take you to write that content? How do you split your time between working on client stuff and then working on your own content and blog posts and the courses that you do, the mailing lists, that kind of thing? How is it split between your week?

Kathleen: Oh my gosh.

Amanda: If you have a prescriptive look at it, you may not!

Kathleen: Right! Well my sister – my business partner and I – we talk about this constantly. We’re always trying to define our roles and figure out what we’re best at and make sure that we’re utilizing our core genius and not diffusing ourselves among things that don’t best serve our business. So Braid Creative is me and my sister, and then we have two employees. We have a brand director who really helps lead up our Braid Methods with our clients. And then we also have a graphic designer who helps us with everything from our client work to even our own blog posts and helping us design our ECourses and things like that. So I’m best at writing at my personal blog, which seems a little silly that that’s part of my job description but I think it is about sharing the life of the creative entrepreneur. So it’s important for me to share the life stuff just as much as the business stuff to show what it is like to live as a creative who is her own boss. And then I’m also writing a lot for Braid. Meanwhile, my sister and my brand director are really doing a lot of the client work. I show up for a lot of the meetings. So on the fly I’m giving on the fly advice, and talking to our clients about personal branding, and talking to them about implementing their own content strategy whenever it comes to their own blogs. So, back to your question, how do I split my time between these things? I’ve learned, actually this week, that I can write about three to four solid pieces a week. So that might include a Braid blog, a Letters for Creatives, and then maybe a personal post or two over on And Kathleen. Between that and meetings and emails, that’s pretty much all my time.

Amanda: Yup, it’s good to know your bandwidth and it’s also good to know emotionally how much time that’s going to take up.

Kathleen: Exactly.

Amanda: Mentally and emotionally sometimes it takes a while to get through that and sit in front of your computer and wrestle with your voice and yourself to get it out there. So less is more.

Kathleen: It is! Right. And I also one thing I forgot to mention is I do creative coaching for creatives who are struggling to maybe leave the day job or trying to sort out what they want their lives to look like. So we offer branding and positioning for our clients who have businesses that they’re wanting to launch or refine. But for the younger creatives – and I say in their career or their age, either way, or maybe the ones that just need someone to bounce ideas off of – I do creative coaching. And that actually takes a lot more emotional bandwidth than I would imagine before I started getting into it. It takes a lot of time to stay really focused on that person’s needs and to hold that space for them. So that takes up a good chunk of my day as well, the creative coaching. I usually have about one session of those a day.

Amanda: Yeah it is. It’s hard to think about someone else’s needs. And that’s like what I’m doing all day, is thinking, “What would someone else need? What would their persona be?” That kind of thing. And it’s so hard to get out of yourself and think about them. It’s kind of like that being a mom too, thinking about someone else all the time.

Kathleen: Right! And then the mom thing definitely plays into it because I really thought that I was going to be able to swing the work at home thing, and have my baby in his little white onesie playing on a little mat beside me, sucking his thumb and just maybe cooing every once in a while. And it was going to be so cute. And then I realized it was completely diffusing my energy. I was unable to write because I was just staring at him. Or I was anticipating that at any point he might need to eat or cry or take a nap, and I would have to stop what I was doing to take care of him. So even whenever he was sleeping I’m still on edge like, “Oh my gosh he’s going to wake up.” And he’s only four months old and I’m figuring it all out, but I quickly realized that I needed outside help to help take care of him so that I can do what I do best, which is the work I do with Braid Creative.

Amanda: And Kathleen, her own personal blog where she documents everyday life with her husband Jeremy and baby Fox, has grown in its own right. A site that readers bookmark, pin, share via Instagram, and come for nourishment, the blog is a brand Kathleen nurtures. But she warns, “Don’t believe that every moment is perfectly manicured.”

Amanda: Let’s talk about blogging and that side of it, because you also run And Kathleen, your blog. And people sometimes romanticize that life is perfect and all these pretty pictures, and you know how people think of bloggers that way.

Kathleen: Oh yeah, sure.

Amanda: So let’s talk about the opposite of that. Tell us about maybe the most unglamorous part of your work right now. Someone that might be surprised to hear like you are indeed a real person and you are doing your thing. What is the most unglamorous thing that people should realize about blogging that way?

Kathleen: Okay, so no one is going to read blogs that are completely keeping it real because if I showed you a photo of me just staring at my computer screen all day, which is pretty much all I do, it’s not pretty. It’s not glamorous. I’m answering a bunch of emails, and while I’m in my head and engaging and writing, it’s soul fulfilling but it doesn’t look pretty all the time. So of course I would much rather show you guys the pretty stuff, right? But as far as other unglamorous stuff – I don’t know, bloggers have this way of even making the hard times feel like a movie.

Amanda: I ask that because we spoke with Cap Watkins – he’s a design lead over at Etsy – a couple weeks ago and he had this great thing about, “If your portfolio is clean and pristine, I ain’t looking at it. I don’t want to see clean stuff in your portfolio. I don’t want it to be white space. Show me the down and dirty methodology in your thinking.” That kind of thing.

Kathleen: Yeah I love seeing sketch books. Whenever I’m viewing student work like, “Okay forget the portfolio, let me see your sketch book.” Because that’s usually where the magic is.

Amanda: For someone who’s constantly on the go, how does Kathleen make time to sit back and learn something new?

Amanda: It seems like everyone’s in this period of immense growth. People are leaving their jobs and they’re doing their own thing and they’re taking Coursera courses and they’re learning new skills. How do you yourself learn? How do you carve out some time to learn a new skill?

Kathleen: I think that hiring a coach or finding a mentor is a huge way to continue to learn. And so I’m always looking for that person who is a couple steps ahead of me to learn from. I limit the amount of blogs that I read these days. I look at a few people that I really admire and I follow them. So Seth Godin for sure. Whenever I need my business fix, he’s my man. And then there are some people like Brené Brown and Martha Beck who are constantly doling out nuggets of wisdom whenever it comes to just being a good person. Who else? Danielle LaPorte, I admire that woman big time. I’m not only listening to her life advice and her business advice and living with your soul and finding your desires and letting that lead the way, but I’m also looking at her business model. I’m looking at how she’s doing it and thinking, “Okay, how can I be a bit more like that? How can I expand my reach and my impact?” I’m constantly reading books. I can’t stop reading books. There’s a few that I really like that I would consider my bibles, and that is Brené Brown’s Daring Greatly. Every single creative entrepreneur should read that. 37signals and their book Rework.

Amanda: Mmhmm, love that.

Kathleen: That’s actually number one. And I would say I think that it’s easy to start getting into this research and taking in information loop, and you can’t stop, and it can kind of lead to paralysis analysis. So I would say just pick one or two people to follow and use them as your mentors, whether or not you’re talking to them in real life or not. Use them as examples. I have periods where I’m learning and I’m taking in information, and then I’m implementing and applying. And I think that’s where a lot of creatives get stuck is the implementing and applying part. So if you read one book or one blog post, take one lesson from it and apply it immediately whether that’s how to keep your inbox clean or how to get more efficient with writing emails or just living with a more whole hearted and vulnerable life. Those sorts of things. Just take one nugget of advice from each book or blog you read and then move forward from there. That’s my learning style I would say.

Amanda: Love that. Yeah Seth Godin is my business/spiritual dad. He sends me emails every morning like, “Hey gut check, think about this today.” Makes you think about it all day. But I love getting pragmatic with it and, “How can I apply this to certain situations today?”

Amanda: Last but not least, the black chalkboard. Perhaps the most notorious staple of Braid Creative and her site And Kathleen, the black chalkboard has been the backdrop to Kathleen’s pregnancy, the launch of her business, and many a branded and unbranded moment. It is a huge component of her brand’s visual identity.

Amanda: We’ve got to address this one. The black chalkboard is so part of your brand. You are a brand in your own right, just like Brené and Danielle LaPorte too, and people really look at you that way. The black chalkboard – where is it in your house? I’m so curious, is it in a room? Is it in like a studio?

Kathleen: Right. Yes, so I have a couple black chalkboards in my house, that’s my secret. So I have one that was in my old office, and then I had to move rooms around whenever we had the baby and started Braid. So I had to paint another chalkboard which is now in what is Fox’s nursery that he never uses. He sleeps with us and he’s never in there. So that’s where the black chalkboard is that I took all my outfit posts against. But then we also have a black chalkboard that we use to manifest clients. It’s our secret weapon. We actually talk a lot about it in our ECourse called Dream Customer Catching. And so it’s where you set goals. I just bought an old hollow door that you would hang in a doorway, a door from Home Depot or Lowe’s or wherever, and I painted it with black chalkboard and then I hung that up on my wall. So even if you can’t invest in painting your whole wall with a black chalkboard, you can still get a chalkboard. Anyway, so that’s hanging in our office and I was really excited because this quarter we had to bust out the second black chalkboard to fit all the unexpected clients that are coming our way, which has been really exciting. So I’m about to move houses. I just bought a new house and I have thought maybe it’s time to retire the black chalkboard

Amanda: Oh my gosh! It’s so – I don’t know.

Kathleen: Even hearing you say it like that’s part of my brand and my image. I know! So I’ll probably find a place to put it. We’ll see, we’ll see.

Amanda: Got to pay it some respect, but it is part of the evolution – at some point you’ve got to let it go, or how can you make it new?

Kathleen: Maybe I can just paint the whole exterior of my house in black chalkboard.

Amanda: There, perfect. That black chalkboard paint, man, go crazy with it everywhere!

Kathleen: Let’s step it up a notch!

Amanda: You’d be the only person to live in a chalkboard house probably in the country.

Kathleen: Now I have to do it.

Amanda: People would come over and just think on your house. How cool would that be?

Kathleen: Challenge accepted.

Amanda: I love that. Well good luck on the move. I know you’re doing your inspection – is it today, this afternoon?

Kathleen: It is today, I’m about to head out to it.

Amanda: Ah! That’s so exciting! I’ll let you go. We kept it to 37 minutes, we’re so good!

Kathleen: Amazing.

Amanda: So I’ll let you go do that, and thank you so much for sitting down with me. I’m going to be hopefully at Circles in the fall so we can touch base and sit down face to face in September.

Kathleen: Well it was so nice to chat with you Amanda, and please keep in touch and tell me more, and tell me if there is anything I can do to help you.

Amanda: You’re so nice! Thank you.

Kathleen: It was so nice to be on the show, thank you for having me.

Amanda: Absolutely, and go enjoy your new house hopefully!

Kathleen: Thank you! I’ll talk to you later, bye.

Amanda: Talk to you later, bye.

Amanda: You can find Kathleen this September at Circles Conference where she’ll be sharing insight from running Braid Creative with the creative community. Check out circlesconference.com for tickets, or visit Kathleen at braidcreative.com or her blog andkathleen.com.

Amanda: Thank you loyal listeners for tuning in. While you’re listening we’d love if you would give On Branding a rating or review on iTunes. And don’t forget to visit us on the Phase 3 show page at phase3mc.com/onbranding. No matter where you go you’re brand is always on, so take On Branding with you.